The Passion of the Christ

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Alaric Torquil	The Passion of the Christ	Lead	[-]
Posts: 319 (02/25/04 08:26:44) Funky Cold-Medina Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Prefacing with the fact I have not seen this film (I will try to see it Saturday), I would like to start a discussion for anyone who has seen it, as well as begin an intellectual discussion about anything related to religion in general. My goal is not to start a bigot thread. I am very interested in discussing this film and all of the possible offshoots. Discussions could include the concept of religions power and influence, historicity of the content of the film vs creative license, and anything related to the politics of the film, speculative outcomes of the film and of course personal experience. Example: Did anyone come out of the theatre blaiming Jews, Romans, or a combination of both? Is the film Anti-Semetic? If you see the film, did you leave feeling different? In what way? Have people been talking about the film at work, school, the grocery line? Did the film, in its purest form, live up to the hype? Was the film more or less than what you expected? It is easy to start a thread with a questioning lead in. I won't be able to respond from an understanding of the film until after I've seen it, but I will post between now and then with some of my thoughts.
Elijah the Warrior	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#1	[-]
Posts: 1126 (02/25/04 09:10:34) The Anti-Wuss Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you're interested in learning more about the movie from a Christian perspective, visit: www.gospelcom.net/rbc/thepassion/ It's the best "fan site" that I've seen thusfar. Well done and appropriate, again, from a Christian perspective. I am scheduled to go to the movie (have tickets already) Thurday evening at 7:30 p.m. EST. I'm going with a group of about 20 men from my church... Elijah, RKB
Lord Phoenix	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#2	[-]
Posts: 792 (02/25/04 11:35:00) Almost Cool Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Be careful what perspective you say it is in. Christians are a very wide and diverse group and in some areas quite insane. God knows they are in my area. That being said, there is never a true "Christian" perspective (unless you count the True Christians over at Landover Baptist hehehe). I've heard arguements from Christians that the movie is both crap and practically heresy and that its a great and moving movie. I'm still waiting for the supposed wave of blood and violence and an end to all Jewdom that the Jewish community says will come of it.
Alaric Torquil	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#3	[-]
Posts: 319 (02/25/04 11:54:49) Funky Cold-Medina Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This is really an "aside". I think it is important that when watching the movie (if watching it simply for an intellectual experience) should be viewed carefully like Phoenix says. One thing to think about is the Catholic practice of the Fourteen Stages of the Cross that begins on Ash Wednesday. I am not an expert on Catholic practice, but can say that this is something I am looking for as it will help to analyze and understand more about what Gibson's perspective is. Speaking of perspective it is important to consider two significant items I often hear debated within Christianity. First are the Doctrines of Christianity and second the items of Interpretation. I have used italics around the words in the preceeding paragraphs because, like Phoenix says, perspectives of what these words mean are wide and far. However, it is my experience that Doctrine receives far less heated debate than issues of interpretation. But, like I said this is just my experience.
Klaitu	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#4	[-]
Posts: 1143 (02/25/04 12:09:01) King of the Nerds Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I've seena significant portion of the movie, but I will be able to see the whole thing tonight at 10:20. Looks pretty good from what I have seen. *-- Klaitu*
Elijah the Warrior	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#5	[-]
Posts: 1126 (02/25/04 12:20:47) The Anti-Wuss Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	When I use the word "Christian," I use it based on the following definition: "One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ and follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus, accepting him as the only way to heaven." With that definition in mind, the link above is presented from a Christian standpoint. Although I do understand that there are hundreds if not thousands of other definitions or interpretations of the word "Christian," I believe that the definition above is the only valid definition based on the teaching of Christ himself. Any other definition or interpretation is based on something other than the teachings of Christ, thus they fall outside (again, based on my beliefs) of Christianity. To address the theories of anti-semetism that many people claim this movie is guilty of, I typically ask one question. "If the Jews and Romans didn't kill Christ, who did?" I don't see that as a knock on today's Jews any more than slavery is a knock on today's Americans... No Jew alive today killed Christ just as no American alive today bought and sold slaves. Saying that Americans once owned slaves is not anti-American... and saying that the Jewish people of the time were partially responsible for the death of Christ is not anti-semetic. I'll close my statements by explaining that I am a "black and white" kind of person. I typically don't have opinions in the "grey area" and I try to live my life the same way. I make decisions, take my stands, and don't tend to levitate in any middle ground. I understand that a lot of people (maybe the majority of people?) tend to not see things in such a fashion... that being said, I'm expressing here what *I* believe and I'm in no way trying to say that someone else needs to believe the same. I believe healthy disagreement and debate is a good thing that has lasting benefits by allowing people to see multiple sides of an issue and begin to take a hard and fast stand on one side of it or the other. Elijah, RKB
Lord Phoenix	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#6	[-]
Posts: 792 (02/25/04 13:42:15) Almost Cool Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	While that is a good definition of Christianity, it does not support a singular Christian viewpoint due to the many hundreds of definitions and interpretations of the teachings of Christ.
Elijah the Warrior	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#7	[-]
Posts: 1126 (02/25/04 14:47:44) The Anti-Wuss Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Actually, it does support a singular Christian viewpoint... a viewpoint that without Christ you cannot achieve eternal life with him - that you will achieve eternal life separated from him. I can't see how anything could be more singular and well defined... In a nutshell, I'm saying that anyone without this singular viewpoint and claiming to be a Christian is sadly and unfortunately mistaken. Feel free to oppose that viewpoint, it's just the one that I happen to base my life (and my belief of eternity) on. Elijah, RKB
Tenebrous the Ancient	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#8	[-]
Posts: 1307 (02/25/04 14:57:37) Best Dressed Evil Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Religious discussion in TDome. ...thats a first. >=E
Jakob Covenant	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#9	[-]
Posts: 462 (02/25/04 16:25:40) Honorary Ninja Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Regarding the "Christian perspective": I have to agree with Phoenix. Christians come in many flavors and are divided in interpretation, practice, and the way we conduct our lives. For example, the Southern Baptists would never have a gay pastor, while the Episcopal church has appointed a gay Bishop. The Quakers and the Mennonites are conscientious objectors, while most other major Christian denominations see no problem with war service. Some Christians believe in the right of women to chose, some do not believe abortion is ever warranted. Some Christians believe in capital punishment, some do not. Some Christians believe in compassion, equality, diversity, gentleness of spirit, while other Christians believe in severity, are opposed to gays, and prefer a separation of the races. Some Christians believe in service to the poor and the meek, while others believe the poor and the meek are lazy and get what they deserve. And each of these Christians will back their beliefs and action with dozens of bible passages. I know Elijah and I are polar opposites politically, so I can only assume that our Christian perspectives are, likewise, widely apart. Despite Elijah's well-meaning link, many Christians see Mel Gibson's movie as historically inaccurate and as biased against Jews. A rule of thumb: always be wary of anyone asserting that there is only one way to be an American, one way to be a patriot, or one way to be a Christian.
Alaric Torquil	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#10	[-]
Posts: 319 (02/25/04 16:27:06) Funky Cold-Medina Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think Gibson's film agrees with the definition Elijah provided. I read on a Yahoo message board that it would be rather rediculous for Jesus to give up his life if he did not believe this definition about himself. If we take for fact that Jesus is the Christ, Son of God, and Savior, then his followers would have to accept this basic definition or else, I suppose, be rejecting his fundamental teaching about who he said he is and if they reject that teaching then what are they standing on, Cultural Christianity perhaps? If one says that Jesus is not who he said he is, then Jesus is a liar and died needlessly and pulled billions of people into his lie. If he is a liar then he is not a prophet or a morally good man people should quote, follow or even respect. And if he was simply crazy....well, there are a lot of crazy people following a crazy liar who is given credit in almost every religion as being a prophet and prophets are not usually crazy. Though I sorta think Greenspan is a little crazy....but maybe he isn't a prophet either. I saw Saving Private Ryan and those opening minutes were realistic and made me think, "Yeah, this is what war is all about." It was a vivid portrayal and I know a few radio disc jockies have commented on this as well, "What about The Passion?" Is the violence in this movie (which I have not seen) an accurate portrayal of the actual violence Jesus suffered or is it doctored up for Hollywood? I read a critic who said of the Passion, "The most unnecessarily violent movie of all time." I am curious why someone would say this? I have a curiosity about violence and its affect on people--mostly because I hear alot about video game and movie violence and its affect on kids. Are people saying this because many many people have heard the story of the crusifiction and for the first time have a visual image to put with it and are uncomfortable with this image? I was telling my wife that I read the Lord of the Rings and built an image in my mind about what Middle Earth looked like. But now after watching the films the story is more real through the visually stunning artistic style. I wonder if this is not the case with the Passion. The story is more real and people do not know exactly what to do with it. So, anyone who has seen the film please share your thoughts about the violence. Did it seem real or over the top?
Alaric Torquil	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#11	[-]
Posts: 319 (02/25/04 16:39:24) Funky Cold-Medina Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Jakob I am curious about something, why do you think so many Christians have so many different views about the social fiber of America? I think it is because of something I asked about earlier. Are Christians debating social issues based on biblical interpretation or doctrine? I got a flyer in the mail awhile back from a local church preparing for this movie which asked something to the effect, "What are the essentials and non-essentials?" Homosexuality, Conscientious Objection, Abortion, Capital Punishment, Community Service, Anti-Semitism, etc... I wonder if these are "essentials" or "non-essentials" and how they play into the presumed purpose and reason for the crusifiction?
RaDian FlGith	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#12	[-]
Posts: 2142 (02/25/04 16:52:24) Fledgling Reader Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Here's a thought on the Prophet issue: Whether or not Jesus Christ is/was truly the Son of God does not lessen his teachings. Perhaps he was "crazy," and maybe did believe himself to be the Son of God, and it wasn't true. That would not lessen the value of what he taught to others. His lessens were fairly simple, and they were all about how to treat your fellow men. He died for his beliefs and what he taught. I find it funny that, like Jakob says, there are a lot of Christians out there who can use the Bible to further whatever agenda that they have. And in doing so, miss some of the most basic teachings of Christ. Heck, most of the KKK think themselves terribly religious, and do most of what they do in the name of God. And believe me, their God is not mine. www.jimsnyder.net
Tenebrous the Ancient	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#13	[-]
Posts: 1307 (02/25/04 17:55:51) Best Dressed Evil Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I hear its s00per violent and gory.
General Nero	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#14	[-]
Posts: 1662 (02/25/04 18:12:03) All-around goodguy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I hear the same, Tene. Either way, its just a movie. I dont see what all the fuss is about, I remember when El Crimen del Padre Amaro(a Mexican film) came out in Mexico there was a big @#%$-stink because it portrayed some priests in a very negative light. Its a movie - there's always someone offended by a movie's content. I'll bet Saving Private Ryan and Kill Bill have alot more corpses strewn about than this movie so I dont see why its even worth debating if the arguement is that its so bloody.
Branwen the Bard	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#15	[-]
Posts: 709 (02/25/04 18:12:51) Monkeypants Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* To address the theories of anti-semetism that many people claim this movie is guilty of, I typically ask one question. "If the Jews and Romans didn't kill Christ, who did?" I don't see that as a knock on today's Jews any more than slavery is a knock on today's Americans... No Jew alive today killed Christ just as no American alive today bought and sold slaves. Elijah, if you want to get really technical... *Quote:* From John: 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. The Jews and Romans didn't actually kill him anyway. ;)
rokiswar(d)	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#16	[-]
Posts: 593 (02/25/04 19:04:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Roger Ebert gives it 4 stars, and says "This is the most violent film I have ever seen." Cool. I probably don't believe in god (It's nothing I could prove), and I really don't like religion, but this movie does look pretty good. Most of the controversy is probably bullshit spewed by a lot of bigots. Even if it is too bloody, or is anti-semitic, who cares? Like Nero said, it's just a movie, like the brillant Last Temptation of Christ. You can agree or not, but Mel Gibson, who will be banned by Hollywood junkmakers, is a brave person. Anyway, it's like everyone out there is a bunch of opinionated fucks, and it's really making me sick. Guh... how sad it is that the world shall never be unbiased word, free of dicky-dickies. I like bloody movies anyway, even though I am the most harmless and gentle person on earth. I'll just go bother seeing it when the theaters clear out, since I don't like a lot of noise.
Lord Phoenix	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#17	[-]
Posts: 792 (02/25/04 19:17:46) Almost Cool Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Of course, all offenses this may cause aside, everything we hear of Jesus saying is hearsay. The claim to be the son of God could have been something that the writers put down to further their own agendas. It helps a lot to gain followers if the line you have isn't "Hey, I have these great teachings from this guy we met and traveled with for years" and is "Hey, I have the word of the son of God. Harken unto me or be condemned to eternal hellfire." A lot of stuff from the New and Old testaments can be seen to be written to further the writers cause. Take Mary Magdalen for instance. A good deal of letters and writings from the time as well as the Bible itself points to the possibility that Mary Magdalen was not only in a very close emotional relationship with Jesus but may have actually been his closest disciple to make 13 disciples. The others appeared to have been very jealous and somewhat taken aback by Jesus's closeness to Mary, who was of questionable moral history and not to mention a woman, over themselves. There are several places in the Bible where it talks of his closeness to her as well as the fact that she was the first to enter his tomb, which was a very honored position to have. Indeed, the sort of man that Jesus was would even point to this as well, thinking not of superiority of man over woman and teaching love overall. Theres also some talk of her perhaps not being a 'prostitute' at all, but in fact just a 'crazy' peasant girl. In those times having a mental or physical affliction was a sign that God didn't like you very much and that you must have done something terribly wrong. The downplay of Mary Magdalen's role with Jesus would have worked very advantageously to the disciples, as the thought of a woman with such power would have turned off most any followers at the time and not to mention it downplay their own roles.
Elijah the Warrior	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#18	[-]
Posts: 1126 (02/25/04 22:39:21) The Anti-Wuss Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* A rule of thumb: always be wary of anyone asserting that there is only one way to be an American, one way to be a patriot, or one way to be a Christian. There are actually very few technical ways to be an American. Either you're born on U.S. soil, born to U.S. citizen(s), or you become an American via the naturalization and citizenship process. If you think there's other ways, try one of them and then try and register to vote. Although I agree that there are hundreds if not thousands of ways to perceive the way you should live as a Christian, I honestly believe that my definition above is the ONLY accurate definition of the term. There are many ways to express the fact that you're an American - but the definition of an American is specific enough that you can't just lump anyone into the category because they wish it to be so. Claiming to be a Christian without submitting to that definition is like being a Mexican and claiming to be an American. If you haven't gone through the naturalization process, you can claim to be an American all day long but you're still a Mexican. Do I think that everyone needs to live their lives like I do... or that everyone should believe exactly the same things that I do in order to be a Christian? Nope, not at all. All I believe is that you must submit to the most basic of definitions as I described above. If you do, I would consider you a Christian. If you don't, I would consider you not. You can choose to consider yourself anything you'd like. At some point, we'll all have to answer for those choices... individually and for ourselves. *Quote:* Elijah, if you want to get really technical... From John: 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Bran, I agree... on an even more technical level, go to Genesis 3:19 where Adam was cursed for disobedience. Then go to John 3:13 through 3:21 where it is described as to why Christ was born. Of course, he was born to die. You might call these technical ways to look at this situation, I call them philisophical. The technical ways to look at the situation, in my opinion, are described in Matthew 27:20 through 27:35, Mark 15:1 through 15:25, Luke 23:20 through 23:33, and John 18:38 through 19:18. I personally prefer the passages in John as they touch me the most. Each of these passages is crystal clear. Pontious Pilate could not find fault in Jesus and thus he was going to release him to the Jewish high priests and elders to be tried by them. These priests and elders rejected him and asked emphatically that he be crucified because the Romans penalized by death and the Jewish law did not. Pilate accepted their pleas and sent him to be nailed to a cross by Roman centurians... now, tempered with your passages, it makes for an interesting debate. Interestingly enough, Jesus died much more quickly than either of the other two men who were crucified beside him... so quickly that Pilate showed surprise at the news that his body was ready to be moved to the grave that awaited him (Mark 15:44). Elijah, RKB
Lord Phoenix	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#19	[-]
Posts: 792 (02/25/04 23:06:52) Almost Cool Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* There are actually very few technical ways to be an American. Either you're born on U.S. soil, born to U.S. citizen(s), or you become an American via the naturalization and citizenship process. If you think there's other ways, try one of them and then try and register to vote. Although I agree that there are hundreds if not thousands of ways to perceive the way you should live as a Christian, I honestly believe that my definition above is the ONLY accurate definition of the term. There are many ways to express the fact that you're an American - but the definition of an American is specific enough that you can't just lump anyone into the category because they wish it to be so. Claiming to be a Christian without submitting to that definition is like being a Mexican and claiming to be an American. If you haven't gone through the naturalization process, you can claim to be an American all day long but you're still a Mexican. 1. Thats how you become a US citizen, not an American. 2. Welcome to the world of religion. You believe that your definition is the ONLY accurate definition, and a couple of billion other Christians believe that their definition is the ONLY accurate defintion. Oh, and that quickness of death has led to many a debate over wether Jesus actually died on the cross or not. There are some writings that tell that he may have had help to escape, especially due to the strange circumstances surrounding his crucifixion, especially the fact that he was crucified very near to one of his friends and financial backer's estate, so close he was practically on it. Theres some theories that he may have fled to Gaul (France) with Mary Magdalen. Theres even an interesting story about how the Holy Grail in old French (something like San Greal) is one letter away from Royal Blood (something like Sang Real) and that its possible that the "Holy Grail" is actually a mistranslation of the Royal Bloodline of Jesus himself (which it is said that he was of Royal blood in a couple of the gospels) and that it is possible that shortly after Jesus's crucifixion when Joseph was entrusted with the San Greal (Holy Grail) and traveled across the Mediterreanean and up through France to Britain, the translators actually screwed up and he was entrusted the Sang Real, or the Royal Bloodline of Jesus himself. By the way, interesting note: The symbol of the Christian church, until Emperor Constantine of Rome changed it to the cross after the first 400 years of Christianity, was the Pentagram, the evil evil symbol that a good number of Christians tend to rally against as evil and pagan. The Pentagram, which is still painted in many variations on the sides and rooves of barns by Amish (and possibly Mennonites too, not sure) to ward away evil, represented the wounds of Christ, with 2 feet, 2 hands, 1 head, and the center for the torso where he was poked with the spear. It holds much the same connotions as the cross when used in non Christian purposes with the upright version being a ward against evil and bringer of good luck and its inverted version being the opposite, much the same as an inverted cross. Unless you are speaking of the Cross of St. Peter, who demanded to be crucified upside down in the idea that it was blasphemous to die in the same method as Christ did.
Branwen the Bard	Re: The Passion of the Christ	#20	[-]
Posts: 709 (02/26/04 00:46:11) Monkeypants Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Klaitu and I just got home from seeing the movie. I'll keep the spoilers to a minimum. The verses I quoted above were actually used in the movie, and that kind of gave me the chills. Amongst other things, of course. The movie itself was superbly done. As our pastor warned last Sunday though, it is not exactly a movie to watch for entertainment purposes. But it definitely deserves to be seen. The most impressive aspect to me was that the film stayed true to the messages of the Bible, even when creative license was used. In fact, the few items that were obviously not a direct translation were very powerful and contributed a great deal to the full impact of the story. The violence was a bit more extreme than I imagined, but it was not of the gratuitous variety. Once again, it simply served to enhance the impact of the story. I'm not a subtitle movie chick, but they didn't bother me at all. And as Klaitu pointed out on the way home, they were clearly very thorough in their preparation for this movie. The Romans speak Latin amongst themselves, the Jews their Hebrew language amongst themselves, and I guess the two groups converse in Greek when together. I didn't catch that, but I'll take his word for it. Oh, and there was a whole lot o' sniffling going on in that theater. Myself included. I'd advise you all to bring tissues.

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