Oh No! Controversy!

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RaDian FlGith	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#101	[-]
Posts: 2142 (03/08/04 13:19:52) Fledgling Reader Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To avoid offending those of a highly religious nature, I am stepping away from the conversation. What I would say would probably re-ignite the thread all over again, and by the time it was done, we'd probably have beaten ourselves senseless to no purpose. I will simply leave on this: Man has used God as his excuse to prove his superiority over other people throughout time. The English were at war, and God was on their side. Man is superior to women, and it was God's will. The KKK will quote bible passages to prove that their hatred of blacks and other non-homo sapiens reallywhitus is God's divine plan. Maybe, just for once, Man should take responsibility for his own feelings, his own actions, and stop blaming The Almighty.
Klaitu	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#102	[-]
Posts: 1143 (03/08/04 15:23:04) King of the Nerds Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's similar to saying that people should take responsibility for their actions and stop blaming their genetics. Just an observation
RaDian FlGith	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#103	[-]
Posts: 2142 (03/08/04 16:23:25) Fledgling Reader Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	How so? That's not even a statement of equal comparison.
Lord Phoenix	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#104	[-]
Posts: 792 (03/08/04 19:31:56) Almost Cool Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'd say that it is to an extent if you are a Believer then the will of God is just as immutable as Genetics, perhaps even less so with the possibility of genetic therapy and engineering. However, from any scientific point of view, aside from the creationists (like I said, any scientific point of view), it doesn't hold up.
Elijah the Warrior	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#105	[-]
Posts: 1126 (03/08/04 21:41:45) The Anti-Wuss Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Anyone highly offendable would have already been offended by this thread, Ra... ;). As for man "using" God... care if I chime in. I agree with you, by the way, although in a backhanded sort of way... hehe. I believe that each of our lives is based on a series of decisions. From the time we begin to knowingly make decisions for ourselves, we either randomly do things... or we do them based on values that we decide are correct for us. For each of us those values will be different and personal. Some of us make decisions (or try to make decisions) based on our interpretations of our religions in cases of a "moral" nature. Ultimately those of us who take responsibility for our opinions as our own realize that these opinions are ours and ours alone. I might make a decision because I believe it is what God would want me to do... but I don't view that as "using" God - I view that as a basis for my decision. I'm sure there are people out there who worship Star Trek and make decisions based on what they believe Kirk would do... Others might make decisions because they believe that there are no consequences to their actions in the afterlife... I think I'm rambling on and losing my point here, but in essence, I believe that someone who "uses" God to futher their own personal agendas without acknowledging that it is indeed their (or their organization's) agenda - not God's - is fooling themselves.
Klaitu	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#106	[-]
Posts: 1143 (03/08/04 23:27:49) King of the Nerds Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My point was that there are some people who do use their religion as an excuse for their own plans. the KKK was a good example mentioned above. There are also people who use their genes as an excuse. Some Alcoholics continue to drink, even though they know they are predisposed to drink to excess. You choose what to believe in, just like you choose to pick up that bottle. This is how the two are similar.
Lord Phoenix	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#107	[-]
Posts: 792 (03/09/04 11:46:03) Almost Cool Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Alcoholism really isn't a good one. Lots of alcoholics don't know they will be alcoholic, and its one of the few addictions that can actually kill you in withdrawal.
Klaitu	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#108	[-]
Posts: 1143 (03/09/04 11:51:15) King of the Nerds Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	They know after they drink.
Branwen the Bard	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#109	[-]
Posts: 709 (03/09/04 12:29:21) Monkeypants Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Not even close to the same thing, Klaitu.
Jakob Covenant	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#110	[-]
Posts: 462 (03/09/04 14:45:59) Honorary Ninja Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	People who become addicts or alcoholics are biologically and genetically VERY different from the people who will NEVER be addicts or alcoholics even if they take an addicting drug, and are, in fact, incapable of being addicts or alcoholics. All addictions work within the reward cascade, a neurobiological mechanism that has evolved to reinforce all instinctive behaviors. The use of drugs or alcohol, even the first use, has a biological origin at the same level as a built-in instinct; it is biologically instinctive. There are countless behavioral addictions all related to one instinct or another. There are people, the so-called checking or harm obsessive-compulsives for example, who can't drive their car two blocks without checking to see if they've run over someone while most people never think twice about such a possibility, no less stop their car and look for a dead body underneath it. These people aren't voluntarily stopping their car every five blocks any more than normal drivers are voluntarily not stopping their cars. The first time they stopped to check wasn't voluntary either. Yet, they got addicted to this peculiar behavior. Personal choice is absent in both situations. There are dozens of behavioral addictions that work exactly the same way: gambling, risky behaviors, people addiction, etc. We have a conscious will that runs the show most of time in non-addictive people although even they can screw up occasionally. But they don't get addicted because they don't have the biology necessary to get addicted. This same conscious will, although just as ever-present and powerful, works less well in those prone to addiction. All humans have a second will, a biological will, an unconscious will, the built-in will, the limbic will so to speak, that pushes non-addictive people around quite a bit, but not enough to allow addiction. In the case of addictive people, on the other hand, this unconscious will consistently overpowers their conscious will and ensures their use of drugs or alcohol and eventual addiction. If it had been a simple matter of personal responsibility and choice, I doubt that Rush Limbaugh would have spent all that hard-earned cash going to a clinic to overcome his dependency on pain killers. Instead, he would have simply willed not to use them and been miraculously un-addicted the next day. Even our beliefs are only in small part a matter of personal choice, but are in large part a matter of the culture we are raised in. There is some degree of personal choice and responsibility. And many alcoholics manage, through a monumental struggle between their conscious will and their sub-conscious, to abstain from alcohol. And for the most part, the alcoholics that are successful at abstaining have a large support group within their families and in associations such as A.A.
RaDian FlGith	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#111	[-]
Posts: 2142 (03/09/04 15:06:24) Fledgling Reader Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes, people choose what to believe in. Of course, that's part of the problem with religion, isn't it? What makes your God better than mine? What makes your way of worshipping God better than my way? (This is all philosophical "you," not a specific person in this thread, btw.) What makes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost more tangible than Zeus, Apollo, and Aphrodite? There have been a great many Gods on this tiny little ball, and all of them share something in common. They are the reasons for various things that happen in day to day life. Me, I believe in God. I just don't believe in the God that many people have chosen to believe in. I believe that at the end of my life, if there is a God that judges me in the afterlife, it will be based on my heart, my mind, my soul, and the actions throughout my life, not in my acceptance of Jesus Christ as my savior. Why? Because frankly, I look at the Bible for what it most likely was. A set of guidelines and parables told and gathered by men of the time to continue to preach what was, at the time, a pretty decent set of thoughts. Keep in mind, at the time of Jesus Christ, there was a lot of wrong in the world, as our history books tell us (though, remember, history is told by the victors, so we aren't even sure that those tales are accurate). We could read the Bible and say, "Yes, we should take it literally." If we do, however, a lot of modern belief and progress goes out the window (as evidenced by other parts of this thread). There are a great many ideals and thoughts in the Bible that are good. And I certainly dispute no one's right to believe in whatever God they so choose, nor do I think my morals are more correct than their morals. We all have the right to believe in what we want to believe in. And certainly, there are many people who NEED the Bible simply to function on a moral level. A work friend of mine basically asked me to hack into a computer to exact vengeance for him -- I wouldn't do such a thing, because I don't believe in doing that kind of crap -- but then later called me back and said, "Forget that. I just remembered a Bible passage about not striking out at your enemies. I'm sorry. Satan just had me by the neck." For him, the Bible is not only a good idea, I'd go so far as to say it's a necessity, because imagine if he did not believe in God; I'm certain hacking a computer is not the worst thought that crossed his mind. Me, I'm probably an idiot, but I have faith in my fellow man; I have faith in myself... not pride, but faith. No, I don't always make the right decision, but when I have wronged, I have made amends; and I recognize my own failings. And to me, there are simply some things in this world that are invariably right -- one of those things is love. So at the end of the day, when it comes to gay marriage, while some may feel it is immoral, I find nothing immoral about love. Now, this is NOT to say that a 48-year-old man loving an 8-year-old man, and having sex, is a good thing... again, this goes back to non-consentual sex. An 8-year-old hasn't had the life experience yet to choose properly; hell, an 8-year-old probably is not yet aware of their own sexuality, and likely hasn't hit puberty yet. But if two men, or two women, or a man and a woman love each other enough, there is no reason they should not be able to be together, to care and provide for each other. Man defined marriage. Perhaps some God did come down and say this is how it should be. But then, if God created man in his own image, doesn't that mean that God is partly gay as well?
Klaitu	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#112	[-]
Posts: 1143 (03/09/04 15:08:25) King of the Nerds Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	alright, let me 'splain it again more simply.. *Quote:* Man has used God as his excuse to prove his superiority over other people throughout time. Nobody can deny that man has used God as an excuse for many things. It is also true that Man has used his own genetics as an excuse for many things as well. the British, for example, saw themselves as racially superior to other races, simply because of the might of their Empire during the victorian era. We don't even need to mention the Nazi's, the link is obvious. The point here is that people try to cover up the choices they make. They point the blame elsewhere. The KKK chose to persecute blacks. The Europeans chose to start the crusades. Hitler chose to put Jews into incinerators. The Dalai Llama chose to follow pacifism. The passengers on those planed on 9/11 chose to fight back. Alcoholics choose to drink. Homosexuals choose to have same-sex relations. The KKK: "We have to persecute blacks, the Bible says so" The Europeans: "We have to take back the Holy Land from the Infidels, God demands it!" Hitler: "I must destroy the Jews, they are nothing but animals who take up resources for good aryan people!" Llama: "I must not fight, fighting is wrong" 9/11 passengers: "We can't let these hijackers kill more people" Alcoholics: "I can't help drinking, it's who I am and I can't change it" Homosexuals: "I need to make out with someone of the same sex, My body craves it!" There's lots of "need" "must" "can't" "have to", but in point of fact, every one of these examples made a choice.. right or wrong. In order to eliminate choice, you have to force a circumstance. Do all Homosexuals have homosexual.. sex? No Do all Alcoholics drink excess amounts of alcohol? No Do all hijacked passengers fight their captors? No Do all tibetans believe in absolute pacifism? No Did all germans believe in burnining Jews alive? No Did all Europeans support the Crusades? No Did all southerners persecute blacks? No Instead of taking responsibility for their actions, many people blame circumstances.. be it their beliefs, or their genetics. Again, this is the similarity.
Klaitu	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#113	[-]
Posts: 1143 (03/09/04 15:15:23) King of the Nerds Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Gah, so much to catch up on! you guys are longwinded! Jakob, addiction is a whole nother matter, because it is predicated upon an outside stimulus and involved brain chemistries and all that stuff. Some people are more susceptable to certain kinds of addictions. Some people can quit smoking with no problems, while others can't seem to cut it out. Some people are more inclined to stop drinking, some people are less inclined to stop drinking.. but everyone who drinks chose to pick up the glass, and down the hatch. And of course, some people are better at resisting that temptation than others. That dosen't mean that Alcoholics are helpless. That they are somehow forced to drink continuously and live in a half-drunk stupor for the rest of their days. Every alcoholic can overcome their addiction if they choose to do so. Every smoker can stop smoking if they choose to do so. Many times though, these people don't make that choice. They want it both ways, but they can only have it one.
RaDian FlGith	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#114	[-]
Posts: 2142 (03/09/04 17:10:01) Fledgling Reader Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes, but Klaitu, here's the difference: You believe Homosexuality to be wrong based on imperfect translations of an imperfect book written by Man SUPPOSEDLY based on the word of God. That does not mean that homosexuality is immoral or wrong. Again, it is freely found all throughout nature. Did it ever occur to you that the reason for those disputed passages about homosexuality in the Bible, providing they ARE accurately translated as damning homosexuality, were written because the people writing the books of the Bible might have had ulterior motive in putting it in there? Let's think... ulterior motive. Hmmm... Romans. Nah. Roman Emporerers never had any sort of forced sexual relations with young guys. Oh. Wait. The pedophilia link! Pardon me if I choose to read the Bible and apply it not only through the "word of God" that it is supposed to be, but also as a historical document that holds specific ideas that were timely when written. Like I say, if we are to take the Bible literally, then let's do it... we should have a constitutional amendment barring Adultery, impure thoughts, and so forth. But then, this country fails to be a country based on idealistic freedoms, and becomes a Christian State.
Klaitu	Re: Oh No! Controversy!	#115	[-]
Posts: 1143 (03/09/04 22:52:30) King of the Nerds Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I believe the Bible because I made a choice to do so. You can choose to believe whatever you like about it.
Tanda BSK	smiles Isn't Freedom grand	#116	[-]
Posts: 200 (03/21/04 23:22:01) Biggie Sizer Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In the Epistle of James Chapter 1 verses 5 & 6 It states: If any of you lack wisedom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. My two favorite biblical verses, for I was always taught to question, and seek the truth.. I do believe the bible to be the word of God in so much as it was correctly translated by man. Man is flawed and suspect. Our nature tends to be one of what ever pleases us. I was Christen Catholic, raised Lutheran because of religious feuds in my parents. At 16 I began my own pursuit.. at 18 became Mormon, lived that devout life several years... before finding my "good mormon husband" was bedding my 17 or 18 year old sitter. I spent a good many years searching for my own understanding. It came in form of a job I took, working with individuals who were chronically homeless due to alcohol or drug addiction and or mental illness. This job put me into the lives of people who had done unspeakable things. It also forced me to take a good hard look at my belief system. After spending months with a young man of 31.. a mere few months younger than myself at the time, who was dying of AIDS due to an addiction or sexuality or both.. it didn't really matter where it came from. I really began to question what I truly believed. Fear,hatred, condemnation all filled his last months on this earth. All I had been taught as a child and young adult about "being Christian" was in conflict... Church doctrine preached against.. Christ's teaching that in love and the spirit of forgiveness.. he could pardon much. I could not reconcile what I knew in my heart was right, with what all I read and talked with others about. This man was no less worthy of love than any who live and breath. If your going to be holding Sexuality against others as a Sin, then any who have engaged in premarital sex are no less guilty or damned. A Savior such as Jesus is believed to be could not cast out a child of his Heavenly father with no hope of redemption for loving someone? Could he? I would like to applaud both Ra and Jakob for voices that remove fear, stigma and judgement from things in life beyond our control. The teachings of Jesus are of peace, love and forgiveness. No where does it tell us we have the right to be judge, jury or executioner. I do not begrudge anyone to believe as they see fit, but life has away of bringing you to face yourself. A loving committed relationship is a thing to be treasured, a sanctuary in a bitter cold world.. regardless of what sex the person are who are involved in it. Though I am married, as an outward sign to others of my committment ... I could have made my vows as strongly in the woods in front of the Higher Being of my choice... God if you wish and be just as bound as I am by the words a Judge spoke binding me until the laws of the state separate us or death.
Tenebrous the Ancient	Re: smiles Isn't Freedom grand	#117	[-]
Posts: 1307 (03/22/04 08:52:59) Best Dressed Evil Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Interesting perspective.
Elijah the Warrior	Re: smiles Isn't Freedom grand	#118	[-]
Posts: 1126 (03/22/04 11:21:35) The Anti-Wuss Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tanda, I have a couple of comments/questions about what you wrote... *Quote:* If your going to be holding Sexuality against others as a Sin... I think that a common misconception is that all Christians judge others based on sin. In reality, I believe that most Christians struggle with their own sins and have little room to judge others. All most of us can do is identify sin and strive to avoid it... the judging is left to Christ himself. A lot of times, though, sin is apparent... and when this is the case, pointing it out and identifying it is different than judging others because of it. *Quote:* ...voices that remove fear, stigma and judgement from things in life beyond our control. Are not fear and stigma... and even judgement sometimes valid things, even when dealing with things in life beyond our control? For example, look at murder. It's a sin... and it's against the law. There are people who cannot control themselves and thus kill other people... would it not be valid for this person to have fear of the consequences of what they're doing, even if it's out of their control? Would it not also be valid for there to be a stigma attached to someone who would do such things? Ultimately, these people end up being judged for their actions, too... again, not necessarily a bad thing in my mind. I suppose a lot of this comes down to perspective... We each have a belief system and live our lives based on it. To a certain extent, our government will always need to have it's own belief system (law) and judge others based on it. In the case of the U.S., our government is ourselves. Thus, each person who is involved in the lawmaking system uses their own set of beliefs (as well as those of their constituency if they're good representatives), and helps to establish the belief system of the government.
Jakob Covenant	Re: smiles Isn't Freedom grand	#119	[-]
Posts: 462 (03/22/04 11:59:32) Honorary Ninja Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tanda: your post came from the heart. I applaud you.
Lord Phoenix	Re: smiles Isn't Freedom grand	#120	[-]
Posts: 792 (03/22/04 18:19:42) Almost Cool Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ahh, great, the thread is back. RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE!

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